Understanding the Creator Economy with Bill Zimmerman
In this episode, Bill Zimmerman joins host Jason Mudd to discuss how the creator economy is transforming public relations and marketing strategy.
Tune in to learn more!
Our guest
Our episode guest is Bill Zimmerman, a professor in the College of Communications at Penn State University. With a background in journalism and public relations, he recently authored a textbook on the creator economy. His academic work focuses on preparing students for the evolving landscape of influencer marketing, content creation, and digital media strategy.
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5 things you’ll learn during the full episode:
- Why brands must understand the difference between influencers and content creators
- The power of evaluating creators’ niche audiences instead of just follower count
- Why trust, disclosure, and transparency are crucial in influencer partnerships
- How to build an effective creator brief and why it matters for brand alignment
- Tools and trends shaping the future of influencer marketing and PR education
About Bill Zimmerman
Bill Zimmerman is an assistant teaching professor at Penn State University’s College of Communications. He brings a wealth of experience from his previous roles as a newspaper reporter and PR professional. Bill holds a bachelor’s degree from Indiana University of Pennsylvania and another in higher education from Penn State, along with accreditation in public relations.
A thought leader in the evolving world of digital media and PR education, Bill authored a textbook on the creator economy and is launching a content creator certificate program at Penn State. His work is helping shape how future PR and marketing professionals approach influencer strategy, creator partnerships, and audience trust in the digital age.
Quotables
- “Trust is the currency of the creator economy. It must be earned and maintained.” — @BillZimmerman
- “A million followers doesn’t mean a million buyers. Engagement matters more.” — @BillZimmerman
- “Creators are trusted more than institutions because they deliver real talk and transparency.” — @BillZimmerman
- “You hire a creator for their voice. Over-directing the message kills authenticity.” — @JasonMudd9
- “Disclosure isn’t optional. It’s ethical, smart, and legally required.” — @JasonMudd9
- “The creator brief is quickly becoming the backbone of successful campaigns.” — @BillZimmerman
Resources
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Episode Highlights
[00:02:56] Adapting PR and Advertising Education for the Creator Economy
“And also understand that what we teach students about PR and advertising is going to have to adapt to what’s happening out there. And that includes a lot more about about creator and influencer strategies.”
[00:03:26] Defining Influencers vs. Content Creators
“An influencer, you know, making money almost solely through brand deals, being being paid by a brand to promote a product in their feed, with video, maybe to have it. And sometimes it’s in the background more like product placement. Other times they’re talking specifically about the product.”
[00:05:25] Brands Should Value Engagement Over Follower Count
“I would encourage a brand to not be not have their judgment clouded by somebody having a million followers or 500,000 and know that you could do some, some pretty impressive things working with content creators who have 10,000, 20,000 followers, but who also have built great trust with their audience and and have influence over them.”
[00:19:09] Importance of Creator Briefs in Campaigns
“I think the creator brief is one of the big takeaways. I want students to, to get from my textbook. And, you know, I’ve been talking to creators, trying to figure out what should those those elements be.”
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Transcript
00:00:00:00 – 00:00:16:08
Bill
You know, talk about that this you know, this says the rise of TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, you know, the content creators on these platforms are changing how how people get the news, how people make decisions about what products to purchase, how people are are entertained.
00:00:16:10 – 00:00:39:15
Bill
And, you know, there’s there’s just big, big things happening, you know, and within the last year, you know, we saw YouTube become the dominant streaming platform on connected televisions. I don’t think most people would have guessed that, right, that more people are watching YouTube on television than are watching Netflix or, Apple Plus or HBO Max. Max now.
00:00:39:15 – 00:01:06:19
Bill
Sorry. So I think that that right there reflects how much people are seeing creators as a way to watching creator content, as a way to unwind. And at the end of the day. So, yeah, there’s there’s just, this is going to need, require lots of vigilance. And, you know, I’m just excited to be kind of playing a small part and starting to, to standardize, you know, some of the, the education, around this topic because I just think it’s such I think there’s just so much creativity and energy around it.
00:01:06:19 – 00:01:08:16
Bill
So that’s what really draws me to it.
00:01:08:16 – 00:01:18:14
Announcer
Welcome to On Top of PR with Jason Mudd.
00:01:18:14 – 00:01:23:12
Jason
Hello and welcome to On Top of PR. I’m your host, Jason Mudd with Axia Public Relations. And today we’re joined by Bill Zimmerman.
00:01:23:19 – 00:01:25:26
Jason
Bill, welcome to the show. Glad to have you.
00:01:25:28 – 00:01:30:24
Bill
Yeah. Thanks, Jason. I’m a I’m a regular listener, so it’s really excited to be on the other side and get interviewed here.
00:01:30:26 – 00:01:51:10
Jason
Oh that’s awesome. Thank you. Thanks for your support. So let me introduce you, Bill. Bill Zimmerman is assistant teaching professor in the College of Communications at Penn State. Before teaching, he worked as a newspaper reporter and public relations professional. He has a bachelor’s degree from Indiana University of Pennsylvania and a bachelor’s in higher education from Penn State.
00:01:51:12 – 00:02:09:03
Jason
He also holds accreditation in public relations. So, Bill, we have those two things in common starting out in journalism as a newspaper reporter and earning accreditation in public relations. Today we’re talking about understanding the creator economy. And I understand you’ve, literally written the book on it.
00:02:09:05 – 00:02:34:24
Bill
Yeah, I published a textbook, last year through, Candle Hunt Publishing, new edition is is coming out this fall. And, yeah, it’s been, you know, a recognition of interest in this topic for students and also a need to educate the next generation of future PR, marketing and advertising professionals. So I’ve been, you know, planning a textbook, some working on some courses.
00:02:34:24 – 00:02:56:03
Bill
We’re actually going to launch a content creator certificate program, within the next year here. So I’m working on that. So we are we want to address, an increased interest among students in being creators, being being content creators. And also understand that what we teach students about PR and advertising is going to have to adapt to what’s happening out there.
00:02:56:03 – 00:03:01:13
Bill
And that includes a lot more about about creator and influencer strategies.
00:03:01:15 – 00:03:22:06
Jason
Got it. Okay, so, Bill, let’s pretend that you just got invited to attend a meeting with, a brand who’s thinking about getting, a, influencer content creator involved. You come into the room, you’ve got their undivided attention. The first thing I think you’ll probably do is help them understand the difference between an influencer and content creator.
00:03:22:14 – 00:03:25:29
Jason
Let’s do that first, and then, and then see where we go from there.
00:03:26:02 – 00:03:48:24
Bill
Yeah, sure. Gladly. Because I’m always trying to I sometimes go back and forth between the two or use them indistinguishable. But, there it is worth noting a difference in a good way to kind of think about it as an influencer, you know, making money almost solely through brand deals, being being paid by a brand to promote a product in their feed, with video, maybe to have it.
00:03:48:24 – 00:04:10:07
Bill
And sometimes it’s in the background more like product placement. Other times they’re talking specifically about the product. And often we can think of them at, activating top of funnel activities. Right. Because, you know, because they have such trust with their audience and often, you know, a level of fame, the idea is that they can be crucial to gaining some awareness for the first time for for a brand.
00:04:10:09 – 00:04:29:15
Bill
Content creators are making me content. This may maybe a little bit more niche, catering to different interests and hobbies. It is the what are you you are doing with this podcast, right? You are you are creating content with the idea that this can, you know, burnish your brand as a PR professional and probably get you business leads.
00:04:29:15 – 00:04:58:20
Bill
Right? So a content creator may have other ideas for monetization. They may be trying to to sell subscriptions to, to, to a course that they offer. They may be, offering premium content at a monthly fee, or they may be selling merch or putting on live events. And often they could be used for more middle, late funnel type of activities, you know, driving, consideration, keeping people engaged once they, find a product, once they convert.
00:04:58:23 – 00:05:05:18
Bill
So those would be the two ways that I would, would separate, those terms that we are hearing so much about right now.
00:05:05:21 – 00:05:25:10
Jason
Good. That’s good background for the audience to be aware of. And, and so we’re still in this same meeting, and they brought you in to be the expert, on this topic, what are some guidelines or ground rules you would establish for them? What are maybe some of the things that, you know, perceptions that need to be changed or addressed, in the room before they go through the process?
00:05:25:13 – 00:05:44:08
Bill
Yeah, for sure. I would say that the really big one is in the in the early days of this, it was a a person’s social media following is often driving, brands interest in them. Right. We were we were brands were just looking at numbers, just sheer mass of subscribers, followers. And that was the most important thing, right?
00:05:44:08 – 00:06:05:04
Bill
Because you would think if this person has a million followers, will we pay them to promote our brand? Then we just got to sit back and let let the money pour in. Right. And that is getting to become more, more, more thoughtful, more strategic and we’re also understanding that big people with big social media followings may not have engaged passionate social media followings.
00:06:05:11 – 00:06:38:15
Bill
So, so lots of data is being collected right now to show that niche creators are often having a better connection with their audiences. Their content gets better, better engagement rates. So so I would encourage a brand to not be not have their judgment clouded by somebody having a million followers or 500,000 and know that you could do some, some pretty impressive things working with content creators who have 10,000, 20,000 followers, but who also have built great trust with their audience and and have influence over them.
00:06:38:18 – 00:06:41:18
Bill
So that would be the big place to start.
00:06:41:21 – 00:07:06:03
Jason
Yeah. No, actually, I like that a lot. And, you know, in the over the years when we’ve done work with, influencers or content creators on behalf of clients, you know, we often find ourselves and maybe you, you relate to this, but having to kind of reset their expectations and that, you know, we’ve worked with a client who only does business in the United States, only sells products in the United States.
00:07:06:06 – 00:07:25:15
Jason
And so we went and found, influencers for them. And they’re like, well, gosh, 40% of their audience is outside the United States. You know, do we get a, you know, 40% discount or something like that? And and it’s like, well, no, you know, and they’re like, well, we only can sell our product in the United States. Like, why would we want to hire this influencer that’s going to be outside the U.S.?
00:07:25:15 – 00:07:47:14
Jason
And like, do you realize the internet is global, right. And and American culture is often, you know, you know, desired to be followed and, and trends identified through American culture. And so, you know, but they really were upset about this. And and so I just, you know, to me, it was an obvious, you know, kind of scenario of that, you know, the, the the internet is global.
00:07:47:14 – 00:08:03:15
Jason
You know, our program on top of PR, we focus on, you know, helping American companies stay on top of PR but, you know, we’ve got audience all over the United States as well. I mean, sorry, all over the globe and so, Bill, what would be your reaction to, you know, that line of thinking?
00:08:03:18 – 00:08:25:15
Bill
Yeah, sure. You know, I think, you know, brands are going to want more, more information. Right? And, you know, and there is software to help with that, you know, whereas, you know, we would have maybe just been stuck with seeing the, the outward facing metrics, like someone’s following you could, you know, go look at their most recent posts and start to calculated engagement rates or something along those lines.
00:08:25:17 – 00:08:45:23
Bill
And now there is software that will will do those things where you can see truly out of the percentage of followers, how many actually respond to a piece of content. You can also start to see, you know, demographic information. So, I like that brands can start to get a more nuanced look at the creators, that they’re working with for sure.
00:08:45:26 – 00:09:12:28
Bill
But yeah, as you said there, that, that that’s scenario doesn’t necessarily discount that that strategy, right, that you’re not going to reach the, the right people in the United States that that, you know, that that influence may spread, you know, beyond the globe. You know something? I’m, I, I’ve heard it, at a recent industry conference was that brands are, there’s usually two roles, to, to kind of, goals with working with creators and influencers.
00:09:13:00 – 00:09:42:23
Bill
It could be to drive sales, to drive growth and it could be really about driving the brand, building a vibe around a particular brand or, you know, enforcing this idea that this brand is, is edgy and, and of the moment. So I, you know, I think there’s, you know, hopefully this textbook, the courses, there’s so many conferences now, you know, organizations like, the PR sa are producing case studies that are, you know, reviewing creators strategies.
00:09:42:26 – 00:10:00:12
Bill
Awards like the Webby and Shorty Awards are excellent resources to to look back on campaigns and see how they perform. So I anticipate, you know, just brands and, and agencies increasingly getting smarter about how, how a campaign, or, you know, a creator strategy should look.
00:10:00:15 – 00:10:24:01
Jason
Yeah. I think what you’re also talking about is not only building the brand, but ultimately the brands awareness, obviously. But then and what I really emphasize is building the brand’s reputation, right, to make a brand, you know, in order to be known, in order to be liked, you have to be known. In order to be liked, you have to be, you know, trusted in order to be, and then once you’re trusted, then people might consider buying from you.
00:10:24:01 – 00:10:36:06
Jason
But I don’t know anybody who’s ever bought something from somebody they don’t trust. Or in the process of buying something from somebody they don’t trust, you know, isn’t a little bit reluctant or weary or anxious about, you know, is this really going to happen for sure?
00:10:36:06 – 00:10:36:14
Bill
Yeah.
00:10:36:14 – 00:10:47:03
Jason
So I think it comes down to building, you know, your brand, building your brand awareness and then ultimately building your reputation. And by reputation I mean just being liked and trusted.
00:10:47:05 – 00:11:12:00
Bill
From and, you know, right. Rightly or wrongly, I think, you know, as what we’re seeing with how public trust in our institutions, content creators have more and more are getting more trust then then the media, then our governments, you know, then then the institutions that, have been in so much in place, you know, through throughout time. So, you know, and creators, you know, that’s and that’s not always an illusion.
00:11:12:00 – 00:11:36:09
Bill
These creators have built up that trust by by giving straight talk to their audiences, by giving honest reviews, even times where maybe they were paid to endorse something and they said they didn’t like it, or for the flavor was a little weird or something, something along those lines. So, and also their willingness to, to, you know, share aspects of their lives, this this is a space where a lot of, a lot of public trust is, is being, being established.
00:11:36:11 – 00:11:53:07
Jason
Yeah, 100%. So earlier you mentioned software and tools, that, that are helpful. Do you have any top of mind that you would recommend or that, you know, again, the kind of the we’re in a boardroom scenario, you know, what what kind of tools would you throw out, that these organization might want to explore?
00:11:53:10 – 00:12:15:07
Bill
Sure. You know, that’s something that I’m in the process of doing is, approaching a lot of these software companies and saying, hey, you’re willing to allow, free access for educational purposes in, in Penn State classroom. So that’s some of the things I’m, I’m looking in, you know, I know some that I’ve, I’ve not been able to, to work with any directly, but I know, grin is one that’s, you know, an industry leader.
00:12:15:11 – 00:12:34:10
Bill
Filippo, there’s so there’s, there’s some of these other these ones out there, but I’m still trying to wrap my mind around around what’s there. And and figure out ways to, that I could potentially, you know, access them to, to teach in our classes because I think they’re going to become more and more a part of the, the process you know, these tools will will give you metrics.
00:12:34:10 – 00:12:55:01
Bill
They will help you vet a creator, help you, initiate a background check. You know, influential is another, another software, with, like, a, you know, an agency guidance component to it as well. But this this process is going to get, get more thorough and, and more strategic. And the software will be playing a big role in that.
00:12:55:04 – 00:13:17:24
Jason
Yeah, I know I haven’t been super involved in the, influencer programs that we’ve done on behalf of clients, but, you know, I know you’re always kind of dependent upon the influencer to get a lot of that, the, detail on that data, you know, so you can kind of, understand, you know, their reach and their audience and that kind of thing.
00:13:17:24 – 00:13:39:12
Jason
But, you know, you’re right. You know, not everybody’s going to be able to get, Mr. Beast to be, you know, their their spokesperson or, you know, mention them in content and things like that. But Bill jumping into, kind of that experience, this boardroom that we’re, we’re having a meeting in and we’re talking to, you know, kind of what’s been your experience?
00:13:39:12 – 00:13:53:11
Jason
What are your recommendations? Because I know what mine are. You know, about when you’re working with a content creator about, you know, how much direction you give them, how much control should you expect to have? You know, talk to me kind of about what? Your recommendations are there.
00:13:53:13 – 00:14:14:24
Bill
Yeah. I think that’s a that’s a big dilemma right now. Right. And something that could give give a PR person chills. You know, I think, you know, think about, you know, when, really, you know, when podcasts really started to take off, how brands started to entrust the podcaster with doing a host. Read ad, you know, and and and that’s not that has that’s happened in radio and it’s that thing is that sort of thing has been around.
00:14:14:26 – 00:14:30:13
Bill
But I thought that was really telling when I started noticing more of those that a brand was willing to give up some of the control. Now, obviously, they gave that person some notes and a few talking points and things. They, you know, a call to action that they needed to hit. But they they must have been seeing returns.
00:14:30:13 – 00:14:57:09
Bill
Right. And having that, that post, you know, tailor that message to their audience. And yes, that’s the that’s the dilemma and the challenge right now. And how do you how do you give enough guidance. You know, and I think of it as, you know, doing those responsible things for the brand, right. And explaining the do’s and don’ts and, and outlining the talking points in the call, that action that needs to take place and the hashtags and the disclosure that needs to take place.
00:14:57:11 – 00:15:20:15
Bill
But maybe staying away from too many creative notes. If you’re working with a creator that’s maybe, you know, doing a comedy skit or, you know, something along those lines. So I think that’s the understanding. Yes, you want to give them some guidance and often they’re probably receptive for some some guidance as well because they don’t always it’s not second nature to them to understand exactly what what the brand is trying to get out of this.
00:15:20:22 – 00:15:43:16
Bill
So giving them some advice but not overly prescribing. Exactly how this should unfold and what they, you know, should say. So I think that’s, you know, the this conference I attended recently was talking about that, that sort of thing. But, you know, giving giving some guidance but don’t not being overly directive. And what exactly their deliverables are going to be.
00:15:43:18 – 00:16:10:17
Jason
Yeah. I think it’s a, first of all, you said something interesting, right? Creator versus giving, you know, creative notes. And, you’re you’re wanting to engage this creator because of their creativity, because of their voice, because of their position, and their clout or influence over, an audience. And the more you start directing it, the more you start giving them input and notes and direction and creativity.
00:16:10:19 – 00:16:14:22
Jason
Less authentic it becomes of it actually being them. Right? Yeah.
00:16:14:22 – 00:16:32:02
Bill
And the less effective it’s probably going to be. And and getting that audience’s attention and getting them to stick with that content. Yeah. And and a creator doesn’t want to turn off their audience either. They have their, their own. They have to try to make sure that this branded content weaves into their feed is naturally, as, as possible.
00:16:32:02 – 00:16:40:17
Bill
Right. And they’re always trying to figure out what’s the what’s the right cadence for, you know, fully organic, original content and branded content.
00:16:40:19 – 00:17:02:10
Jason
Yeah, that’s 100% right. I agree with that. And so I’m just making a note here, you know, the importance of providing like a creative brief, you know, like here’s here’s what we’re trying to accomplish. Here’s some key messages to keep in mind. And then really letting that person have the artistic freedom to be genuine to themselves, genuine to their audience, and stay authentic in that moment.
00:17:02:12 – 00:17:25:07
Jason
You know, I know we’ve done some work with ambassadors over the years. Bill, where, you know, a client, like a major family entertainment center that you would know of that’s, you know, kind of an entertainment with arcades and and food and I don’t want to say their name, you know, without their permission on the show, but, you know, we’ve hired brand ambassadors for a grand opening for them and stuff like that.
00:17:25:09 – 00:17:41:22
Jason
And, you know, they’ve given us a long list of everything that these brand ambassadors are supposed to know, and it’s like, or, you know, hiring, you know, people to work at a trade show for you or help draw traffic to a trade show. You know, you know, the generation before mine, I think called them, you know, booth babes a lot of the time.
00:17:41:22 – 00:17:59:12
Jason
And that’s certainly not a, you know, in vogue term to use. And at the end of the day, these people will, you know, especially like in Vegas, if you go to Vegas for a trade show, there are people who are trained to be kind of ambassadors and trained to go out and bring people to, to a booth and have them sign up for something or do a demonstration.
00:17:59:14 – 00:18:19:15
Jason
If you try to over equip them with messages, they can’t possibly know this much information about your company, right? So you have to keep it very high level. You know, I often say 2 or 3 messages you want that person to know because the next morning, if they’re not employed by your booth again, they’re going to a different booth, a different conference, a different trade show.
00:18:19:22 – 00:18:38:17
Jason
And they’ve got to learn to be scripted all over again. And so, you know, they’re professionals at doing this. And their profession is, you know, very short interactions, high conversion rate. Bring somebody to Booth and go right back out and do it again. They’re not going to remember your company name in five days, you know. So Bill kind of, what are your notes?
00:18:38:17 – 00:18:40:00
Jason
What are your thoughts on that?
00:18:40:02 – 00:19:09:19
Bill
Yeah. The I think the creator brief is one of the big takeaways. I want students to, to get from my textbook. And, you know, I’ve been talking to creators, trying to figure out what should those those elements be. And I think you would if you were to, you know, examine you know, 100 brands, you would see probably all sorts of approaches from a very, you know, established, drawn out plan, you know, and, and if it’s in an industry like pharmaceutical, you know, it’s going to be really long about what can, what can and can’t be said in that, that material.
00:19:09:25 – 00:19:27:11
Bill
And you may find brands that aren’t giving any briefing, you know, whatsoever. So I, you know, really thinking about that, there’s, you know, it, I see it as a critical part of the, the relationship and that and that’s also going to count for a lot of things like, you know, after the fact that that could be good for the brand, right?
00:19:27:13 – 00:19:52:26
Bill
That could be guidelines about, could be morality clauses. Right. That if a creator does something like this, you can you know, instantly end a relationship and have the right to have that content removed. Or it could just be, you know, follow ups, you know, asking a creator 60 days. From now, take screenshots of all your metrics and send them back to us so we can assess the how the performance of your content.
00:19:52:26 – 00:20:12:17
Bill
So yeah, I think the the brief is going to be one of these things that just is going to just become, to critical to, to how these campaigns run. And the creators get some guidance. The brand can cover, cover their bases, and you can you can start to create some sort of shared understanding about about what’s expected, how many posts are going to be made.
00:20:12:19 – 00:20:30:09
Bill
And, you know, and this is also a time to outline, you know, clear directions on on ad disclosure. You know, something I try to talk about a lot in class. You know, not not every creator is doing it. And, you know, to to be in compliance with the Federal Trade Commission, you know, laws, hashtag ad or just ad should be right there.
00:20:30:09 – 00:20:44:04
Bill
It should be the first thing in your caption. And I think that’s the that’s the thing, you know, that where the the direction it’s going to be the brands responsibility and the creators responsibility to make sure that’s that’s done out of respect for the consumer.
00:20:44:06 – 00:21:07:25
Jason
Yeah. And just a quick soapbox moment here, Bill, is that the same should be done. Believe it or not, for our audience, when they’re sharing content from their employer or somebody they’re receiving financial benefit from, you might not have to lead with, you know, ads, but you definitely need to say early, in your post, you know, hey, I work for this company now, you don’t have to be as boring as saying I work for this company.
00:21:07:25 – 00:21:24:18
Jason
You could say I’m proud to work for this company, or I’m so excited that my employer made the following announcement or something like that. But you have to tie it in, just like I have to say. I’m really, you know, proud of my client or happy that I was part of this campaign for my client or, you know, we love doing business with Phil in the name of the company.
00:21:24:23 – 00:21:42:03
Jason
Just some way to associate yourself with being part of the company. And, you know, the one way I see this being done is like, you know, I know other business owners and I see, like in community Facebook groups where they say, I’m looking for a construction company that can come and do this. And my friend’s wife goes in there, says, oh, this company’s the best.
00:21:42:03 – 00:22:05:28
Jason
And she’s tagging her husband’s company without disclosing that, you know, my husband works there, my husband owns or something like that. And like you just said, you know, the now, I don’t think the the, Federal Trade Commission is going to come find this, you know, this wife and, you know, and find her. But the company should be going, you know, educating their employees to educate their family members.
00:22:05:28 – 00:22:25:15
Jason
And, for me personally, I can’t tell you, Bill, how many times I’ve had, you know, a family member of mine go in and leave a positive review for Axia. And I’m like, hey, I love your support. Thank you for supporting my small business. Could you take that down? You know, because you’ve never done business with us. You know, sometimes we share the same last name.
00:22:25:15 – 00:22:33:09
Jason
It’s not a good look, but bottom line is we want our reviews to be 100% authentic and very similar. When you’re doing work with content creators.
00:22:33:11 – 00:22:57:16
Bill
Yeah, I, I’ve been impressed with what the Federal Trade Commission has created in recent years. You know, they have a guide. It’s very plain language. It’s not government speak about guidelines for these things. And they have started to touch on. Yeah. Employees, people who own businesses, people who have family relationships and businesses. And this is, this is a subset of this, you know, influencer marketing world is trying to mobilize employees as well.
00:22:57:17 – 00:23:36:00
Bill
You know, B2B, influencers, you know, and there’s, you know, lots of push to have your employees talking about your brand on social media. And, yeah, those people need to be disclosing as well that I, I work at this place, you know, if you’re if you’re sharing that post on LinkedIn about how your, you know, your workplace was named one of the best places to work in America, you know, clearly marking that you own that business or you work at that business, you know, I, I do I’m worried, you know, that that that, social media users maybe don’t care as much around these things as they should and that maybe brands and creators
00:23:36:00 – 00:24:03:22
Bill
are going to keep looking for ways to kind of work around some of this, because they don’t want to harm the effectiveness of their posts in that in that moment, you know, and I think the thing we’re seeing now is more content that is more branded content that is very subtle. You know, it’s it’s a get ready with me where a creator has that, that soda brand just sitting on their, their vanity, you know, and they’re not even mentioning, you know, it or they take a quick sip in between, you know, during a scene transition.
00:24:03:25 – 00:24:16:21
Bill
And, you know, I think, there’s going to be a it needs to be more vigilance on everybody’s part. Otherwise, you know, the mistrust will creep into the whole whole operation and hurt things in the long run.
00:24:16:24 – 00:24:32:29
Jason
That’s a good point. You’re exactly right. It is about trust, right? And in the minute we forget that or think that other people don’t recognize it, is when kind of the spidey sense starts to go up in people’s, you know, the hair on the back of their head or some kind of indicator where this just doesn’t quite seem right to me.
00:24:33:01 – 00:24:52:01
Jason
And, you know, I was having a conversation this morning. I was on a video conference, and the guy was saying, hey, I highly recommend this company. And, you know, here’s my here’s a link to that you can click on to get, you know, preferred treatment with this company or something. And then he then proceeded to say, you know, I don’t have anything to do with this.
00:24:52:01 – 00:25:12:13
Jason
You know, I don’t make any money off of this. And the more he kept saying that, the more I kept saying something’s weird. Hey. And so I asked a mutual acquaintance of, like, how does he have a referral code? And there’s no relationship there or whatever. And then the next time I got back on this same, you know, video thing, the guy’s like, hey, you know, I guess I am making something off of this.
00:25:12:13 – 00:25:37:28
Jason
I didn’t realize at the time. And I will, you know, I, you know, anything I make from it, I’ll just donate to a charity. And, you know, he claims his handler set it up and he wasn’t aware. But at the same time, I was kind of. Yeah, that seems kind of weird, too. So I think at the end of the day, right, I distance myself from feeling comfortable buying from this organization because of, you know, the fact that they weren’t transparent and true truthful.
00:25:37:28 – 00:25:43:24
Jason
And so I think that’s really good, advice that you’re giving. Yeah. Go ahead. Bill.
00:25:43:26 – 00:26:01:20
Bill
I was just saying thank you for that. Yeah, I, I agree. And that’s, you know, the referral codes, you know, if you were to share a referral code, you know, or you’re going to, you know, put it in your show notes and say, hey, you know, I could potentially receive a portion of any sales driven by that by, you know, clicking on that link.
00:26:01:20 – 00:26:20:14
Bill
And I think sometimes we lose sight of how, you know, we would want to be treated if we were on the other end. Right? We would want all that information to determine how valid we we find that that recommendation. Right. And it doesn’t mean that we all discount it after we know that person has been been paid or compensated in some way, we may still trust them.
00:26:20:14 – 00:26:45:12
Bill
So the value their opinion so much that we still, go, go forward. But yeah, it’s just on the side of oversharing, right. Those any sort of, arrangement that may benefit you in any way and also disclosing that you receive something for free, you know, that’s a whole other side of this. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to be paid to be under that obligation to disclose that there is some material connection there.
00:26:45:14 – 00:27:07:10
Jason
Yeah. What I see a lot of Bill is the local TV personality. Either former personality or current personality, you know. Oh, look, I just happened to be at, you know, Bob’s fitness today, and I’m getting a personal training session with Bob, the owner. And I just want to go live and say hi to you guys. And it’s like, is that really what’s happening?
00:27:07:10 – 00:27:24:12
Jason
You know, and, and like, as the viewer, like, you can see right through it and it to me and just like, are they not being trained either by the station or the network or someone else to know, hey, you’ve got to do these things. It’s just an ethical and moral right thing to do is to disclose.
00:27:24:14 – 00:27:36:03
Bill
Yeah, yeah, they’re probably gonna be a new policies and are going to need to be be created in so many different workplaces as more people, you know, want to do try this, you know, you know, personally.
00:27:36:03 – 00:27:45:12
Jason
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00:27:45:12 – 00:28:09:29
Announcer
You’re listening to on top of PR with your host, Jason Mudd. Jason is a trusted advisor to some of America’s most admired and fastest growing brands. He is the managing partner at Axia Public Relations, a PR agency that guides news, social and web strategies for national companies. And now, back to the show.
00:28:09:29 – 00:28:14:00
Jason
Alright, so back to the board room. What else do these folks need to know before they start engaging, content creator?
00:28:14:02 – 00:28:35:01
Bill
Yeah. You know, I think also, you know, there is there’s some there was an Adobe survey from a few years ago said the average content creator is age 40, which I think would probably surprise a lot of people. Surprised me. Yes. And so I think this understanding that there creators are all types, you know, there are and all types of interests and some of them are totally anonymous.
00:28:35:03 – 00:28:59:26
Bill
They may be just an off screen narrator. Some are full, you know, front of the camera. Celebrity types and comedian types. But there’s also people making very in-depth, informative content about various niches and hobbies. And those people can, can get very, you know, passionate followings, because they’re delivering a need that many people find was was on meant an unmet.
00:28:59:26 – 00:29:22:03
Bill
Sorry. So I think that’s the really broadening your idea of what a what an influencer can be. Right. You know, I think you could probably remember in the early days of social media how it was often just dismissed as people taking photos of their meals. Right. And how that was really an oversimplification of what was happening. And, yeah, it would and it would be the there would divisions in the same way there would be danger.
00:29:22:10 – 00:29:34:21
Bill
And thinking of influencers as just beautiful people, traveling the world and being in exotic locations, doing cool things and, and taking photos and videos while they’re doing it.
00:29:34:23 – 00:29:41:15
Jason
Yeah, I know somebody in my own local community that does a lot of restaurant stuff and, yeah, regional creators.
00:29:41:15 – 00:29:43:06
Bill
That’s a no no. Another subset of this.
00:29:43:06 – 00:29:55:10
Jason
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I can’t tell when her posts are paid or unpaid because she doesn’t mark them. And, and, and, you know, I get it, like, if you’re not getting paid today, you start to create some kind of content.
00:29:55:10 – 00:29:55:23
Bill
Sure.
00:29:55:24 – 00:30:03:26
Jason
Yeah. And, and, you know, I think, in fairness, like, she should be disclosing, you know, when things are paid and when things are authentic and. Yeah, and that kind of things.
00:30:03:27 – 00:30:06:18
Bill
Yeah. When a meal was provided for free and. Yeah.
00:30:06:20 – 00:30:29:24
Jason
Yeah, exactly. So, you know, and I appreciate you saying that when the meal was provided for free. And so what I advise clients and companies all the time is it, if there was any consideration provided, any consideration. Right. It’s a, you know, percentage of, of, purchases through a affiliate link or there was a free hotel or free airfare or free travel.
00:30:29:24 – 00:30:59:21
Jason
Free meal, free whatever. Or cash traded hands, if there’s any benefit at all that is exchanged or consideration exchanged, it should just be disclosed. Now, you don’t need to say, hey, I received 10% of any, you know, sales that transpire. But, you know, saying I receive a percentage of sales that transpire or I, you know, I can benefit from this or they’re sponsoring me or paying me to say this or, you know, there’s very there’s many ways you can say, and as I said earlier, it doesn’t have to be, in my opinion, boring and robotic.
00:30:59:26 – 00:31:06:22
Jason
Yeah. If it’s naturally part of the conversation, not deceived or mumbled or or under emphasized.
00:31:06:26 – 00:31:20:29
Bill
Yeah. You would just be starting a video saying, hey, they paid me to do this, or, you know, or they just sent me this in the mail. I’m so excited to get it. You know, I’m just really just putting it out there, making it easy to to grasp. And yeah, the disclosure itself can really, to meet the requirements.
00:31:20:29 – 00:31:32:01
Bill
It could just be starting off the caption with ad, you know, and, you know, it does. Yeah. It doesn’t have to be this thing that’s going to weigh down a caption with all sorts of legalese, you know, and, and text. Yeah, yeah.
00:31:32:03 – 00:31:42:27
Jason
Yeah. All right. Bill. So, you wrote a book. Congratulations. That’s a big thank you. Feels like a bucket list for everybody in the undertaking.
00:31:42:27 – 00:31:43:06
Bill
Yeah.
00:31:43:06 – 00:32:01:23
Jason
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I’ve never written a textbook. I’ve written, I think, seven, you know, short books on on public relations, all of which are available on Amazon. Of course. But I’ve been mentioned in, quoted a couple times in textbooks. I’ve been asked if, you know, an article I publish could be in a textbook or something like that.
00:32:01:25 – 00:32:21:08
Jason
And, you know, so I think that’s happened to maybe three times. Not a big deal. But what’s really fun is one time I was taking, a course, you know, like, just a course, getting a certificate in, and, and unrelated to PR and, a guy in there was like, hey, I’m a student at the university, whatever.
00:32:21:08 – 00:32:37:15
Jason
And I was reading my assignment, and you were quoted in this. You know, textbook here or whatever. And I was like, oh, that’s cool. So he texted me a photo of it, and then I thought that was even cooler, you know, to see that. And, my son is currently studying communication at the University of North Florida, and so he’s not far enough along yet.
00:32:37:15 – 00:32:42:05
Jason
But I think they’ve got me quoted in a textbook there. So I’m looking forward to see if he one.
00:32:42:12 – 00:32:43:06
Bill
That’s actually.
00:32:43:06 – 00:32:44:18
Jason
Does his schoolwork and read.
00:32:44:18 – 00:32:45:14
Jason
And write.
00:32:45:17 – 00:32:53:24
Jason
And then to, you know, if he’s, willing to say something to me or, you know, I think a lot of times he kind of rolls his eyes at, you know, at my stuff or whatever.
00:32:53:24 – 00:33:00:00
Bill
So, yeah, maybe this will really get him to take note of dad, right? When he when he see that, see that name in his textbook.
00:33:00:02 – 00:33:16:09
Jason
Well, I, I was recently interviewed. I’ll just mention, on CNN, and my son texted me and said it was weird to see you on TV. And I was like, well, that’s weird, because, like, his whole life I’ve done like, you know, little TV segments, but I guess he just was too young or not paying attention, you know, or finally reached the age where, you know, you.
00:33:16:11 – 00:33:16:16
Bill
Kids.
00:33:16:21 – 00:33:25:11
Jason
Are all adults and they now say things to me, Bill, like, gosh, you were always right about whatever, or I should have listened to you. And you know, when they when you first on the advice, you know, they didn’t care what you had.
00:33:25:13 – 00:33:26:08
Bill
Sure, sure.
00:33:26:11 – 00:33:26:28
Jason
Yeah.
00:33:27:00 – 00:33:32:22
Jason
So, Bill, you wrote a textbook. Any any advice on writing a book? Any any habits?
00:33:32:26 – 00:33:33:07
Bill
Yeah.
00:33:33:09 – 00:33:34:05
Jason
Techniques you used.
00:33:34:10 – 00:33:58:14
Bill
It’s really hard, you know, and for me, it really. Yeah, it it made some of my struggles with focus, like, glaringly obvious. Yeah. I think, it was I was able to, to spread it out over, over time, over several months. I had, you know, editors, you know, contacts at the publisher who were very helpful and kind of working it along, establishing deadlines.
00:33:58:16 – 00:34:18:03
Bill
You know, I think that’s one of the thing. If you can kind of have have somebody there, you know, creating, creating deadlines, creating expectations, initiating, you know, zooms with you every, every few months, just, to to check in. Yeah. You know, I think that was the big part, you know, and also, you know, just to just the books come in all types, right?
00:34:18:03 – 00:34:44:29
Bill
And, you know, I, I was able to, you know, I understood that, yes, I have some perspective on this, but also there’s so much my my role can also be compiling the available information out there and tapping into to creators, input. I end each chapter with a Q and A with a content creator and some who have, you know, have, you know, six figure big six figure followings and or kind enough to, to fill out a Q and A.
00:34:45:05 – 00:35:07:17
Bill
So I think that’s, that’s also the thing, you know, to you if even if you, don’t let not maybe having a strong personal perspective or story, interfere, you know, the people who are just good at, you know, cataloging information and pulling together, you know, different perspectives and organize it in a way that makes sense. There’s books that need that as well.
00:35:07:17 – 00:35:24:18
Bill
So, yeah, just, like, give yourself plenty of time to work on it. Do whatever you can to try to eliminate distractions. I’m a big fan of the, the Pomodoro method, where you set a timer for 25 minutes and focus on nothing but but, one task, and then take a small break and then come back into it.
00:35:24:20 – 00:35:40:17
Bill
That’s been an invaluable in doing this. But yes, it also really helps to have other people, keep you keep you on track and and check in, you know, when, you know, you have that zoom session, call in a few few weeks, you’re going to want to have something to talk about. You’re going to want to have some good news to report.
00:35:40:17 – 00:35:44:15
Bill
And you know that you’ve accomplished this, this and this before that.
00:35:44:18 – 00:35:51:13
Jason
Did you have a routine? Did you start each morning writing a little bit? Did you focus Saturdays on writing like what was what was your rhythm?
00:35:51:16 – 00:36:13:14
Bill
Yeah, I really you know, I found that I would try to really capitalize on those days when I was not not teaching, when I didn’t have to be in the classroom. You know, I found that this was not something I could do just when I had, you know, an hour long gap here, here and there, it was something that, yeah, it was needed, like a weekend or needed a day where there were no other meeting scheduled and I didn’t have to teach.
00:36:13:21 – 00:36:34:28
Bill
So, yeah, for me, that’s what what worked at the to set aside a good chunk of time to really think about it and, you know, and also, Google Docs, you know, I’m a big fan of having a doc that you could easily update with ideas. And, you know, I would I created an outline in there that made it much easier to write when it was time to really, you know, sit down at my keyboard and stare at a blank screen.
00:36:35:01 – 00:36:53:05
Jason
Yeah. For sure. I you’re making me remember when I was in college, it took me to, like, my late junior year to figure out, man, wouldn’t it be cool if I just had classes on Tuesdays and Thursdays only, you know? Yeah, yeah. Just go to classes five days a week or something, you know, split it up, have class days, have study days, have workdays, etc..
00:36:53:05 – 00:37:09:11
Jason
Yeah. Because, you know, I had to pay my way through school or work my way through school. So, you know, I was a lot more attractive to an employer if I could be there all day Monday, Wednesday, Friday or need Tuesday, Thursdays off kind of thing. So, you know, I think if you can kind of re-engineer your schedule, if you have that privilege and capability, that’s always smart.
00:37:09:16 – 00:37:10:19
Bill
Yeah. For sure.
00:37:10:22 – 00:37:32:08
Jason
The other advice I’ve always heard about writing a book, and I share this because our audience, a lot of people are interested in writing books is, you know, figure out what’s the ten things you want to discuss, cover, address in your book, make each of those be a chapter. And then once you figure out your ten chapters, then ask yourself, you know, kind of what are the ten frequently asked questions about that topic or the ten things you want to answer about that topic?
00:37:32:11 – 00:37:48:16
Jason
Then you’ve got kind of your outline built. That’s very rough, obviously, but it gets you going. And then if you have an editor or an assistant or whatever, you know, they could just take that 100 questions and answers that you have and turn that into a manuscript or a draft or something like that for you.
00:37:48:18 – 00:37:58:12
Bill
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And it makes it that, that less intimidating when you get started. Right. You have this loose, you know, outline guide concept of what your you’re about to do. Yeah.
00:37:58:14 – 00:38:10:27
Jason
Yeah. The hardest thing about going to the gym is, you know, putting your shoes on and getting out the front door. Right. You’re so kind of the same thing here. Yeah. Yeah. Bill, any closing thoughts or recommendations to our audience.
00:38:11:00 – 00:38:27:09
Bill
That, I mean, there’s, you know, I think just keep learning about this. Right? And, you know, I’m I’m going to try my best to keep educating, you know, the future interns and junior employees who are coming into your, your office. But I, I really think this is, this is something that we, we we really can’t, can’t ignore.
00:38:27:09 – 00:38:43:17
Bill
You know, talk about that this you know, this says the rise of TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, you know, the content creators on these platforms are changing how how people get the news, how people make decisions about what products to purchase, how people are are entertained.
00:38:43:19 – 00:39:06:24
Bill
And, you know, there’s there’s just big, big things happening, you know, and within the last year, you know, we saw YouTube become the dominant streaming platform on connected televisions. I don’t think most people would have guessed that, right, that more people are watching YouTube on television than are watching Netflix or, Apple Plus or HBO Max. Max now.
00:39:06:24 – 00:39:33:28
Bill
Sorry. So I think that that right there reflects how much people are seeing creators as a way to watching creator content, as a way to unwind. And at the end of the day. So, yeah, there’s there’s just, this is going to need, require lots of vigilance. And, you know, I’m just excited to be kind of playing a small part and starting to, to standardize, you know, some of the, the education, around this topic because I just think it’s such I think there’s just so much creativity and energy around it.
00:39:33:28 – 00:39:35:25
Bill
So that’s what really draws me to it.
00:39:36:18 – 00:39:45:23
Jason
Yeah. So, Bill, real quick, if you, or if our audience wants to connect with you, is LinkedIn the best way to find you, or do you prefer they they drop you an email?
00:39:45:26 – 00:40:05:28
Bill
No. LinkedIn would be fantastic. I’m easily reachable on there. Engage quickly and have and welcoming all sorts of perspectives, especially from people in the industry doing this work right now and from content creators. Please let me know the things that you think are must haves in a textbook in in a college course, around this area.
00:40:06:01 – 00:40:22:20
Jason
I love it. Okay. All right. Bill, thank you so much for being here. I’m glad we were able to do this. Congratulations on having the book done. And I’m, really looking forward to, letting this episode air and getting feedback from, our audience about as well. And we’ll collaborate on how we can share it and get the word out.
00:40:22:25 – 00:40:25:18
Jason
So for sure, help people stay on top of PR.
00:40:25:21 – 00:40:34:15
Bill
Yeah. Thank you so much, Jason, and thank you for doing this podcast, because it’s been a really helpful part of my own, professional development and staying on top of what’s, what’s happening in the industry. So thanks.
00:40:34:22 – 00:40:51:05
Jason
Yeah, I really appreciate that. Thank you very much, Bill. All right. So with that, that’s another episode of On Top of PR. I hope you enjoyed it today. Thank you for tuning in. If you would just take a moment to either leave us a review on your preferred platform, or take a moment to share this with a colleague or friend who you think would benefit from Bill’s expertise.
00:40:51:08 – 00:41:03:11
Jason
And if you do connect with Bill on LinkedIn, be sure to send him a custom invite. Let him know you you heard about him or saw him on on top of PR and, you know, he’s a really good guy and, I’m sure he will be happy to hear from you.
00:41:03:11 – 00:41:59:02
Announcer
This has been On Top of PR with Jason Mudd presented by ReviewMaxer. Be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and check out past shows at ontopofpr.com.
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About your host Jason Mudd
On Top of PR host, Jason Mudd, is a trusted adviser and dynamic strategist for some of America’s most admired brands and fastest-growing companies. Since 1994, he’s worked with American Airlines, Budweiser, Dave & Buster’s, H&R Block, Hilton, HP, Miller Lite, New York Life, Pizza Hut, Southern Comfort, and Verizon. He founded Axia Public Relations in July 2002. Forbes named Axia as one of America’s Best PR Agencies.
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